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Pteridospermatophytes in spermatophyte phylogeny

Pteridospermatophytes, otherwise known as seed ferns, are an extinct clade of stem seed plant and might have been ancestral to modern seed plants, but for some reason they are not included in the cladogram of spermatophytes, so could someone please add them to the cladogram of spermatophytes, i actually tried to do it but it was to hard and always met with one error or another. Monstera enjoyer (talk) 07:55, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

The sources that the cladogram is based on don't include Pteridospermatophyta, which I believe is a polyphyletic clade. I think that's why this clade hasn't been included in the cladogram yet. PrinceTortoise (he/him • poke) 08:25, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

oh, ok anyways thanks for the info Monstera enjoyer (talk) 09:16, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Also, that cladogram in the spermatophyte article is of living spermatophytes. (There is a tendency for cladograms in articles on living taxa to focus on living representatives.) If you could find a well supported cladogram, Pteridospermatophyta might be a suitable home. Tracheophyta has a cladogram including progymnosperm and pteridosperm terminals, which is probably inaccurate, as both groups are thought to be paraphyletic. Note that the cladogram also doesn't include the various extinct gymnosperm orders. Lavateraguy (talk) 15:47, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

The cladogram for seed plants is based on genetic analyses so is limited to living species. Phylogenetic trees that include pteridosperms will be based on morphological data and will probably conflict with the gnepine hypothesis shown in the seed plant article.  —  Jts1882 | talk  16:07, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

They also generally just contradict each other. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:42, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Pteridosperms are one of the remaining great enigmas of modern paleobotany. Other than the fact they are seed-bearing plants nobody really agrees how they are related to living seed plants (and this is also true for other extinct seed plant groups like Bennettitales), maybe other than lyginopterids are probably stem group seed plants. Some books and papers misleadingly present the authors pet hypotheses of seed plant relationships as some kind of consensus view when there is none. In my opinion it is highly inappropriate to include pteridosperms in cladograms because this falsely implies some kind of agreement regarding their affinities when the position of particular pteridosperm groups varies wildly from one study to the next.Hemiauchenia (talk) 15:54, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

i tried to add pteridosperms to the seedplant cladogram as wikipedia itself mentions that pteridosperms are spermatophytes. Monstera enjoyer (talk) 16:08, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Pteridosperms are undoubtedly spermatophytes , but they almost certainly don't form a natural group unto themselves (i.e. they are not monophyletic) so trying to put them as a single group on a cladogram is misleading if that's what you were trying to do. Hemiauchenia (talk) 16:39, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Merge Grain to Cereal

I proposed that Grain be merged to Cereal. Please discuss the proposal on Talk:Cereal#Merge Grain. Lophotrochozoa (talk) 23:07, 21 February 2025 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:List of grape varieties#Requested move 11 February 2025

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:List of grape varieties#Requested move 11 February 2025 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 21:51, 26 February 2025 (UTC)

Requested move of Taraxacum

Just a heads up to folks here that there's been a requested move of Taraxacum → Dandelion, especially since it involves plant common name questions we frequently deal with in the plant world. There was a similar move request a few years ago. More at Talk:Taraxacum#Requested_move_13_March_2025 KoA (talk) 23:40, 18 March 2025 (UTC)